This blog serves as a public forum for you to post your reactions to a broad range of texts--from Shakespeare's really uncomfortable early play Titus Andronicus to Alan Ginsberg's "obscene" poem "Howl" to the latest album from Kendrick Lamar. The conversation revolves around notions of cultural influence and how popular "products" get us to react to them and to the things they endorse.
Tuesday, January 14, 2014
John Donne's The Flea and Andrew Marvell's To His Coy Mistress
Both of the poems, “To His Coy Mistress” and “The Flea” were about males trying to convince their lovers to have sex with them. The narrator in “The Flea” was trying to prevent his lover from killing the flea that had sucked both of their blood. Because their relationship was forbidden he used the mixing of both of their blood to signalize some sort of bond between them even though marriage was not an option for them. The women in the poem saw sex before marriage as a sin and therefore denied the two of them from having sex. The man however tries to prove a point to her by telling her not to kill the flea because in some way, that signalizes the two of them married and wrapped up in the flea. The woman kills it and the narrator then states that she had killed the both of them while she killed that flea. Committing three sins in one even though she was scared of having sex and committing only one sin. He also says that because she is no longer innocent because she killed the flea, then she would lose no more honor than she did by killing the flea if she had sex with him. The narrator in “To His Coy Mistress” also played with the woman’s mind when she denied the act of having sex with him. He basically asks her why she is wasting her time, or her life on being a virgin and following rules. Because once you are dead, your virginity and your beauty no longer matters and you along with the rest of those things will turn to dust. He tells her that if time wasn’t an issue that he would show her the love and take the relationship slow. He uses “vegetable love” to signify that he would progress through the relationship slow to show his love if only he had enough time to do so. Or go back in the time of Christ and start the relationship there. He tries to make her second guess herself to think that he does truly care and that time is an issue so maybe she should just comply. I feel like both of the poems relate in that sense of the men trying to find the right words to say in order for the girl to have sex. Because “The Flea” he makes her feel guilty as if she truly did sin three times and that sex before marriage isn’t too big of a sin even though that’s how she feels. He tries to convince her otherwise even though their relationship is forbidden. “To His Coy Mistress” he tells her that time will run out and nothing will matter anyways so why worry about it. I feel like this relates to life now with guys always talking pretty to the girls for them to develop trust or go along with having sex because they think the guy really loves them. But in reality, if the guy loved the girl, he would respect her decisions regardless of what he wants. I mean, 2014, girls are out sweet talking guys too so I don’t want to be completely one sided, but for the point of these poems, I use the example with guys.
In John Donne’s “The Flea” and in Andrew Marvell’s “To his Coy Mistress”, there are two similarities. They both rhyme and talk about relationships, mostly sexual. In “The Flea”, the male character uses the flea as an example of their relationship. Since the flea sucked the blood out of the man and woman, it’s now mingling inside of the flea. He describes it as their marriage bed & temple, basically where they would have sex. He says killing the flea wouldn’t only physically kill it, but figuratively would destroy their relationship. The woman eventually kills the flea, committing three sins, instead of just one. So now, if she had sex with him, she wouldn’t lose nor gain any more honor because she killed the flea. In “To His Coy Mistress”, another male is trying to persuade a woman to have sex with him. But instead of a flea as a metaphor, he uses time. He continually tells her that they only have a limited amount of time to do this before they die. Also, he says death is forever and that if they don’t have sex, there will be consequences, such as worms in the girls coffin that will take her virginity. He uses a lot of corny and cheesy sayings, like playing a game that involves a “ball” & that he’ll gaze upon her body for years until he gets to her heart. Honestly, both poems show me how desperate we guys must be. Both poets use characters that flirt with these girls very creepily, instead of just getting to know them. Also, both males try to make the girls feel bad about them if they don’t have sex with them; that there will be consequences that will follow. These two are pretty much begging and they won’t take no for an answer, which is sad. I know I sound harsh, but that’s what it sounds like to me. To me this sounds creepy, not sweet. I don’t think I’d ever approach a girl and compare our relationship to a bug.
I honestly have to say that when I started reading these two poems I read it in like this old English accent and was mainly focusing on the accent and trying to pronounce some of the words rather then actually getting the whole concept of the two poems. It was quiet interesting reading the pomes in an English accent I felt as if I was the poet and when I read the poems the second time (also in the accent) I as if I was the poet writing this poem and having second thoughts about it because of how weird it was. I mean in that time of age I guess it was not that weird and in some cases probably considered romantic but I do not find much of any romance with a fly sucking our blood and carrying it around and mixing the bloods together, it just seems to me like some sort of disease about to happen like AID’s or something, not very romantic at all. The other poem was a bit easier to depict what this guy was saying and it was a lot more about sex and then about death! I don’t know what these poets thought about back then but it is just weird. This poet was talking about their loving growing and how fantastic it would be and basically saying how virginity was a very important part of the whole relationship and if she was not a virgin then the whole thing of their love would be shattered and turned to ashes and therefore unimportant. I don’t really know what else to even say about these “poems”.
The two short poems The Flea by John Donne and To His Coy Mistress were both about saying whatever they could to try and convince their lovers to have sex with them. The poems were a little hard to understand for me at first because I absolutely hate reading old English. It just really annoys me and some of the words don’t even make any sense. Anyways I thought that The Flea was really funny because trying to pick up women by talking about a flea is so random and would never work, but I don’t know what the women back then were in to. Using another object and trying to make killing the flea seem worse than having intercourse with him was kind of clever, but it still made me laugh. Saying that if she killed the flea would be like three sins could have probably worked in that day in age, but nowadays the idea might work just with a different example. The flea had sucked blood from both the man and the woman and the man told her that they were connected and that if she killed the flea then she would figuratively kill them and their relationship. In To His Coy Mistress, the man used the idea that you never know when life will end so they should have sex before they died because death could come at any possible moment. Time is a gift so cherish it and do whatever you want to as soon as possible. He is telling her to seize the day and basically have sex with him as soon as possible. These poems both were basically a bunch of corny pickup lines. Saying these things now would probably freak women out. I think that these poems are creepy and funny to me at the same time.
Both, “The Flea,” by John Donne, and “To His Coy Mistress,” by Andrew Marvell, were about males trying to convince their “lovers” to have sex with them. The narrator in “The Flea” attempted this by trying to make the woman feel bad about telling him no. Throughout the whole poem, he is trying to stop the woman from killing a flea. He uses the fact that the flea drank both of their blood as them somehow being together inside the flea even though their families are preventing them from ever actually being married. Because they could not get married, the woman would never have sex with him, because to her premarital sex is a sin. At the end of the poem the woman kills the flea, signifying that she would not have sex with him. Still trying, the narrator tries to make her feel guilty by saying that now she has committed three sins, when she could have just committed one with him. The narrator in “To His Coy Mistress” is also trying to get his lover to have sex with him, even though she said no because she would be sinning by doing such. He basically just asks the woman why she is wasting her time and life being a virgin. He tells her that when she is dead being a virgin and having good looks will no longer matter and that if time wasn’t an option he would take their love slow. To signify that he uses the term “vegetable love,” meaning that he would let their love grow and blossom over time and not rush it. I think that he says that just to make her think that he really does want to take things slowly, but truthfully he just wants to trick her into thinking that she has to have sex with him right away before it is too late. The only real difference between the two poems is that the men each use different ways to try and get their lovers to have sex with them. In “The Flea” he tries to make her feel guilty, and in “To His Coy Mistress,” he tries to trick her into thinking he would actually wait until marriage with her but they are running out of time.
In the poems “To His Coy Mistress” by Andrew Marvell, and “ The Flea” by John Donne. The first thing I noticed was that both authors were males. This might not have much to do with the story being told but I found it interesting considering both poems were about males and their sexual relationships with women. Ultimately the goal of the man was to convince or get the woman to understand that in this case, sex is just sex. In “The Flea” the male uses the flea as a tool to explain to the woman that both their blood is inside of the flea and together they are one in the flea and that by killing the flea as the woman desires, it will do no good. He explains to the woman that by killing the flea she is then killing herself and what good is that? I get the feeling that he is asking the woman if the only sin the flea has committed is drawing their blood then what purpose does she have in killing it? This is compared to sex and sexual relationships in that if it is only a sin than what purpose do we have to not do it? She would lose no more honor killing the flea than having sex. In “To His Coy Mistress” the male explains to the woman that if they had time he would focus each individual part of her both in love and sex. He tells her that there isn’t enough time that they are dying every day and that if she dies a virgin then the worms will take her virginity. In this he is suggesting to have sex while they are still young. Overall I didn’t see the Carpe Diem connection unless it is suggested through sex and how it is suggested in these poems.
In the poems by Donne and Marvell, I did not get them at first, but a second read through of the poems made me laugh because they tried to convince their lovers to have sex. First of all, asking to do that is just weird! Donne’s poem the flea as a symbol of having both him and his lover’s blood together inside the flea. Sort of funny. Because their families prevent them from getting married, the lover feels that it is not right to have sex before marriage because it is a sin. In Marvell’s poem, a similar theme occurs where the narrator makes the lover feel guilty because she said no to have sex with her. He says to her that its “vegetable love,” where their love will grow and blossom together for whenever she is ready to take that next step. Newsflash, guys will say anything to get what they want (all the girls better agree with me!). Virginity is very important I think for a girl because, whether or not it is something to do with their religious beliefs or morals, it represents that girls purity. If any girl wants to take that step with a guy, she will, basically, put her heart into the guy and think that it will be the same way for them, when in reality it is important to the girl.
Throughout both poems, “The Flea” and “To His Coy Mistress” there was a constant theme of a male trying to pursue a woman. At first I did not quite understand what I was reading which resulted in me rereading both poems a few times. In John Donne’s “The Flea” the narrator is trying to convince a woman who he hopes to become his lover, not to kill a flea because it creates the illusion of something deeper than marriage. Due to the flea sucking their blood inside that flea their two bloods are mingled which is something much greater than marriage in his opinion. He is trying to keep her from killing the flea because killing that flea will not only destroy is physically but figuratively it would destroy their relationship. Ultimately in the end the woman ends up killing the flea. The speaker tries to make the woman feel guilty for refusing him stating that instead of sinning three times she could have only sinned once. The woman killing the flea was her rejection of the man and the relationship that was forbidden by their parents. In “To His Coy Mistress”, the speaker is trying to use flattering to convince the woman to sleep with him. When flattering doesn’t work the speaker continues to say that the woman is running out of time and is risking dying a virgin. The speaker changes his tone throughout the poem, towards the end he sounds as if he is over confident and a little frustrated. Both poems are very similar in the sense that both contain men in pursuit of a woman. What sets each poem apart is how each man approached the woman and tried convincing them to become their lovers. In the end though it appears that neither succeeded.
Both of the poems, “The Flea” by John Donne and “To His Coy Mistress” by Andrew Marvell contained the general idea that the man wanted to captivate or seduce the woman. In class, we discussed the idea that the “door now swings both ways”. Now in the 21st century, times have changed. I’m not saying that women now write awkward poems trying to get a man’s attention, but more women have taken control. More women are asking out men or making the first move. I’ve heard various stories in real life and on television where the women ask the men to marry them. Today’s society is going against what was the norm and what was expected. Women have become stronger and take more of a control of their lives now than before. We aren’t as reliant as we once were on men.
I liked both the poems, at first I was very confused about what they were saying but after reading it a couple times I finaly got it. I like the subtle hints of romance I think that was very clever. I feel bad for the guy from The Flea, he would never be able to feel the warm touch of the one he loves but yet he still holds on to hope and tries to make a connection between him and her. The speaker definitely portrays hisself as a hopeless romantic, not being able to be with the woman he loves crushes him but knowing that her blood will be mixed inside the flea with his gives him an ounce of satisfaction.
Both of the poems, “To His Coy Mistress” and “The Flea” were about males trying to convince their lovers to have sex with them. The narrator in “The Flea” was trying to prevent his lover from killing the flea that had sucked both of their blood. Because their relationship was forbidden he used the mixing of both of their blood to signalize some sort of bond between them even though marriage was not an option for them. The women in the poem saw sex before marriage as a sin and therefore denied the two of them from having sex. The man however tries to prove a point to her by telling her not to kill the flea because in some way, that signalizes the two of them married and wrapped up in the flea. The woman kills it and the narrator then states that she had killed the both of them while she killed that flea. Committing three sins in one even though she was scared of having sex and committing only one sin. He also says that because she is no longer innocent because she killed the flea, then she would lose no more honor than she did by killing the flea if she had sex with him. The narrator in “To His Coy Mistress” also played with the woman’s mind when she denied the act of having sex with him. He basically asks her why she is wasting her time, or her life on being a virgin and following rules. Because once you are dead, your virginity and your beauty no longer matters and you along with the rest of those things will turn to dust. He tells her that if time wasn’t an issue that he would show her the love and take the relationship slow. He uses “vegetable love” to signify that he would progress through the relationship slow to show his love if only he had enough time to do so. Or go back in the time of Christ and start the relationship there. He tries to make her second guess herself to think that he does truly care and that time is an issue so maybe she should just comply. I feel like both of the poems relate in that sense of the men trying to find the right words to say in order for the girl to have sex. Because “The Flea” he makes her feel guilty as if she truly did sin three times and that sex before marriage isn’t too big of a sin even though that’s how she feels. He tries to convince her otherwise even though their relationship is forbidden. “To His Coy Mistress” he tells her that time will run out and nothing will matter anyways so why worry about it. I feel like this relates to life now with guys always talking pretty to the girls for them to develop trust or go along with having sex because they think the guy really loves them. But in reality, if the guy loved the girl, he would respect her decisions regardless of what he wants. I mean, 2014, girls are out sweet talking guys too so I don’t want to be completely one sided, but for the point of these poems, I use the example with guys.
ReplyDeleteIn John Donne’s “The Flea” and in Andrew Marvell’s “To his Coy Mistress”, there are two similarities. They both rhyme and talk about relationships, mostly sexual. In “The Flea”, the male character uses the flea as an example of their relationship. Since the flea sucked the blood out of the man and woman, it’s now mingling inside of the flea. He describes it as their marriage bed & temple, basically where they would have sex. He says killing the flea wouldn’t only physically kill it, but figuratively would destroy their relationship. The woman eventually kills the flea, committing three sins, instead of just one. So now, if she had sex with him, she wouldn’t lose nor gain any more honor because she killed the flea. In “To His Coy Mistress”, another male is trying to persuade a woman to have sex with him. But instead of a flea as a metaphor, he uses time. He continually tells her that they only have a limited amount of time to do this before they die. Also, he says death is forever and that if they don’t have sex, there will be consequences, such as worms in the girls coffin that will take her virginity. He uses a lot of corny and cheesy sayings, like playing a game that involves a “ball” & that he’ll gaze upon her body for years until he gets to her heart. Honestly, both poems show me how desperate we guys must be. Both poets use characters that flirt with these girls very creepily, instead of just getting to know them. Also, both males try to make the girls feel bad about them if they don’t have sex with them; that there will be consequences that will follow. These two are pretty much begging and they won’t take no for an answer, which is sad. I know I sound harsh, but that’s what it sounds like to me. To me this sounds creepy, not sweet. I don’t think I’d ever approach a girl and compare our relationship to a bug.
ReplyDeleteI honestly have to say that when I started reading these two poems I read it in like this old English accent and was mainly focusing on the accent and trying to pronounce some of the words rather then actually getting the whole concept of the two poems. It was quiet interesting reading the pomes in an English accent I felt as if I was the poet and when I read the poems the second time (also in the accent) I as if I was the poet writing this poem and having second thoughts about it because of how weird it was. I mean in that time of age I guess it was not that weird and in some cases probably considered romantic but I do not find much of any romance with a fly sucking our blood and carrying it around and mixing the bloods together, it just seems to me like some sort of disease about to happen like AID’s or something, not very romantic at all. The other poem was a bit easier to depict what this guy was saying and it was a lot more about sex and then about death! I don’t know what these poets thought about back then but it is just weird. This poet was talking about their loving growing and how fantastic it would be and basically saying how virginity was a very important part of the whole relationship and if she was not a virgin then the whole thing of their love would be shattered and turned to ashes and therefore unimportant. I don’t really know what else to even say about these “poems”.
ReplyDeleteThe two short poems The Flea by John Donne and To His Coy Mistress were both about saying whatever they could to try and convince their lovers to have sex with them. The poems were a little hard to understand for me at first because I absolutely hate reading old English. It just really annoys me and some of the words don’t even make any sense. Anyways I thought that The Flea was really funny because trying to pick up women by talking about a flea is so random and would never work, but I don’t know what the women back then were in to. Using another object and trying to make killing the flea seem worse than having intercourse with him was kind of clever, but it still made me laugh. Saying that if she killed the flea would be like three sins could have probably worked in that day in age, but nowadays the idea might work just with a different example. The flea had sucked blood from both the man and the woman and the man told her that they were connected and that if she killed the flea then she would figuratively kill them and their relationship. In To His Coy Mistress, the man used the idea that you never know when life will end so they should have sex before they died because death could come at any possible moment. Time is a gift so cherish it and do whatever you want to as soon as possible. He is telling her to seize the day and basically have sex with him as soon as possible. These poems both were basically a bunch of corny pickup lines. Saying these things now would probably freak women out. I think that these poems are creepy and funny to me at the same time.
ReplyDeleteBoth, “The Flea,” by John Donne, and “To His Coy Mistress,” by Andrew Marvell, were about males trying to convince their “lovers” to have sex with them. The narrator in “The Flea” attempted this by trying to make the woman feel bad about telling him no. Throughout the whole poem, he is trying to stop the woman from killing a flea. He uses the fact that the flea drank both of their blood as them somehow being together inside the flea even though their families are preventing them from ever actually being married. Because they could not get married, the woman would never have sex with him, because to her premarital sex is a sin. At the end of the poem the woman kills the flea, signifying that she would not have sex with him. Still trying, the narrator tries to make her feel guilty by saying that now she has committed three sins, when she could have just committed one with him. The narrator in “To His Coy Mistress” is also trying to get his lover to have sex with him, even though she said no because she would be sinning by doing such. He basically just asks the woman why she is wasting her time and life being a virgin. He tells her that when she is dead being a virgin and having good looks will no longer matter and that if time wasn’t an option he would take their love slow. To signify that he uses the term “vegetable love,” meaning that he would let their love grow and blossom over time and not rush it. I think that he says that just to make her think that he really does want to take things slowly, but truthfully he just wants to trick her into thinking that she has to have sex with him right away before it is too late. The only real difference between the two poems is that the men each use different ways to try and get their lovers to have sex with them. In “The Flea” he tries to make her feel guilty, and in “To His Coy Mistress,” he tries to trick her into thinking he would actually wait until marriage with her but they are running out of time.
ReplyDeleteIn the poems “To His Coy Mistress” by Andrew Marvell, and “ The Flea” by John Donne. The first thing I noticed was that both authors were males. This might not have much to do with the story being told but I found it interesting considering both poems were about males and their sexual relationships with women. Ultimately the goal of the man was to convince or get the woman to understand that in this case, sex is just sex. In “The Flea” the male uses the flea as a tool to explain to the woman that both their blood is inside of the flea and together they are one in the flea and that by killing the flea as the woman desires, it will do no good. He explains to the woman that by killing the flea she is then killing herself and what good is that? I get the feeling that he is asking the woman if the only sin the flea has committed is drawing their blood then what purpose does she have in killing it? This is compared to sex and sexual relationships in that if it is only a sin than what purpose do we have to not do it? She would lose no more honor killing the flea than having sex. In “To His Coy Mistress” the male explains to the woman that if they had time he would focus each individual part of her both in love and sex. He tells her that there isn’t enough time that they are dying every day and that if she dies a virgin then the worms will take her virginity. In this he is suggesting to have sex while they are still young. Overall I didn’t see the Carpe Diem connection unless it is suggested through sex and how it is suggested in these poems.
ReplyDeleteIn the poems by Donne and Marvell, I did not get them at first, but a second read through of the poems made me laugh because they tried to convince their lovers to have sex. First of all, asking to do that is just weird! Donne’s poem the flea as a symbol of having both him and his lover’s blood together inside the flea. Sort of funny. Because their families prevent them from getting married, the lover feels that it is not right to have sex before marriage because it is a sin. In Marvell’s poem, a similar theme occurs where the narrator makes the lover feel guilty because she said no to have sex with her. He says to her that its “vegetable love,” where their love will grow and blossom together for whenever she is ready to take that next step. Newsflash, guys will say anything to get what they want (all the girls better agree with me!). Virginity is very important I think for a girl because, whether or not it is something to do with their religious beliefs or morals, it represents that girls purity. If any girl wants to take that step with a guy, she will, basically, put her heart into the guy and think that it will be the same way for them, when in reality it is important to the girl.
ReplyDeleteThroughout both poems, “The Flea” and “To His Coy Mistress” there was a constant theme of a male trying to pursue a woman. At first I did not quite understand what I was reading which resulted in me rereading both poems a few times. In John Donne’s “The Flea” the narrator is trying to convince a woman who he hopes to become his lover, not to kill a flea because it creates the illusion of something deeper than marriage. Due to the flea sucking their blood inside that flea their two bloods are mingled which is something much greater than marriage in his opinion. He is trying to keep her from killing the flea because killing that flea will not only destroy is physically but figuratively it would destroy their relationship. Ultimately in the end the woman ends up killing the flea. The speaker tries to make the woman feel guilty for refusing him stating that instead of sinning three times she could have only sinned once. The woman killing the flea was her rejection of the man and the relationship that was forbidden by their parents. In “To His Coy Mistress”, the speaker is trying to use flattering to convince the woman to sleep with him. When flattering doesn’t work the speaker continues to say that the woman is running out of time and is risking dying a virgin. The speaker changes his tone throughout the poem, towards the end he sounds as if he is over confident and a little frustrated. Both poems are very similar in the sense that both contain men in pursuit of a woman. What sets each poem apart is how each man approached the woman and tried convincing them to become their lovers. In the end though it appears that neither succeeded.
ReplyDeleteBoth of the poems, “The Flea” by John Donne and “To His Coy Mistress” by Andrew Marvell contained the general idea that the man wanted to captivate or seduce the woman. In class, we discussed the idea that the “door now swings both ways”. Now in the 21st century, times have changed. I’m not saying that women now write awkward poems trying to get a man’s attention, but more women have taken control. More women are asking out men or making the first move. I’ve heard various stories in real life and on television where the women ask the men to marry them. Today’s society is going against what was the norm and what was expected. Women have become stronger and take more of a control of their lives now than before. We aren’t as reliant as we once were on men.
ReplyDeleteI liked both the poems, at first I was very confused about what they were saying but after reading it a couple times I finaly got it. I like the subtle hints of romance I think that was very clever. I feel bad for the guy from The Flea, he would never be able to feel the warm touch of the one he loves but yet he still holds on to hope and tries to make a connection between him and her. The speaker definitely portrays hisself as a hopeless romantic, not being able to be with the woman he loves crushes him but knowing that her blood will be mixed inside the flea with his gives him an ounce of satisfaction.
ReplyDelete